Top 3 Ketosis Tips for Success – Dr. David Jockers | Podcast #240

Top 3 Ketosis Tips for Success – Dr. David Jockers | Podcast #240

October 24, 2019 5 By William Morgan


Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
Hey guys, it’s Dr. Justin Marchegiani here.
We have a great friend, awesome awesome information
dude, Dr. David Jockers.
He’s got some amazing information we’re going
to talk about today regarding ketogenic diet.
David has a phenomenal summit out now called,
The Keto Edge Summit.
I was a speaker in it.
Amazing speakers, amazing information, we’re
gonna go over some of the top three Keto tips
that David applies with himself and his patients
to help improve their health.
David, welcome to the podcast.
How are we doing?
Dr. David Jockers:
Hey always great to be on Dr. J, I love listening
to you and Evan.
Big fan of the show, so always great when
I get to be on.
And I love our conversation.
So thanks a lot.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
Yeah well thanks for being here, Doc I really
appreciate it.
So let’s dive in to it, you’ve been utilizing
ketogenic diet, intermittent fasting, these
tips these techniques to help improve insulin
sensitivity, to help with cellular turnover
and healthy aging.
So what’s the number one thing right now that
you find that patients have a barrier with
it, when you make this tweak or you make this
adjustment, they get to their next level of
health utilizing a ketogenic diet?
Dr. David Jockers:
Now I would say the number one thing is hydration.
You see, in our brain our, our hypothalamus,
our hunger center and our thirst center are
right next to each other.
And whenever we eat, we stimulate dopamine.
It helps us feel good.
And I think that’s a great adaptation, because
you know it’s like, it’s great to feel good
when we eat and it helps drive us to eat to
consume food.
But what happens is because food so prevalent
in our society today, whereas as our ancestors
didn’t have access to, you know we didn’t
have pantries and refrigerators and things
like that in years past.
So food is prevalent.
We could literally be eating all day long
and we’re constantly stimulating that dopamine.
And so for many people have become addicted
to it, and our hunger and our thirst center
are right next to each other in that area
of the brain.
And so for many people they’ve had these neuroplastic
changes where the hunger center has now moved
into the thirst center.
So they’re really thirsty but they experience
it as hunger.
So they’re like I need something, I need a
dopamine hit.
There’s something that I’m missing and there’s
food, I’m going to go for the food, and really
most people are chronically dehydrated meaning
more fluid.
We need more water.
And so I find that drinking more water, hydrating
your body really well especially when you
first wake up in the morning, so critical,
so critical, for intermittent fasting, so
critical for fat burning, for cleansing the
body, for energy production, for good mental
clarity, and for Keto adaptation.
And so getting some good water, I recommend
drinking you know, if you’re not used to it
start with just eight ounces, OK.
But ideally, trying to get 16 to up to 32
ounces of water within the first hour of waking
up.
So really hydrating your body well because
when you’re sleeping overnight you’re breathing
out water vapor.
So you’re actually losing water throughout
the night.
So when you wake up in the morning really
hydrating well, not only will replace that
water, but on top of that it’s also going
to help stimulate energy production, you’re
going to notice that your energy goes up,
the better you’re hydrated, more energy production
your body’s going to have, you’re also going
to poop better, right.
We want to get poop out, want to have good
bowel movements early in the morning, you’re
at your large intestine is most active.
So my goal is always to have two really good
solid bowel movements within the first hour
of waking, and it’s like my energy is just
amazing, my mental clarity- I’m so productive
when I’m able to do that.
So hydration is number one tip.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
I think that’s amazing.
I’ve been following that for years.
When I first discovered the book, your body’s
many cries for water by Dr. Batten and Gila.
She talked about that.
I’ll add some extra like Redman’s real salt
or I’ll use a trace minerals support I’ll
add to it.
Today, I had a little bit of alcohol last
night so I before I went to bed I have a drink,
I typically drink mineral water in between
each alcoholic beverage to get the extra minerals
back in and then I did a lot of glutathione
before bed and a lot of vitamin C and extra
electrolytes to start my day, and those stretch
receptors in your tummy when water comes in,
it hits those stretch receptors and allows
you to feel more satiated and then naturally
have an appetite that’s more calibrated with
what their nutritional needs actually are.
So that’s a great tip.
Dr. David Jockers:
Yes so important, I mean we have that ghrelin
hormone.
And so when we’re when our stomach is empty,
ghrelin going to come out and tell us we’re
hungry.
So yes the eating a big breakfast in the morning,
it’s normal for you to want to eat a big breakfast
because you conditioned this response that
ghrelin pop out.
What if you just start by hydrating your body
you’re gonna notice you’re gonna be more satiated.
This is a great way to get started with intermittent
fasting- you just hydrate your body really
well in the morning, and then wait for natural
hunger to come after that, to start with the
hydration, now allow the natural hunger to
come, you know, as it comes naturally after
that.
Yeah definitely getting the electrolytes and
to adding some —
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
Yes it’s very important.
And as insulin levels drop too we tend to
pee, pee more because insulin tends to pull
sodium.
Sodium tends to pull water.
So that’s why you know someone does a ketogenic
diet and drops their carbs really low they’ll
lose three or four pounds the first day it’s
not going to be fat it’s going to be water.
So yeah I mean that’s that’s a really salient
point because we are going to be losing a
lot of that water so we have to make sure
we get it back.
And I would even say the key electrolyte to
on keto that I find is really low is potassium.
So really upping the potassium and or just
really focusing on lots of green vegetables
and avocados is another awesome tip for sure.
Dr. David Jockers:
Yeah.
That is important and sodium too actually.
When you lose a lot of sodium, so getting
a lot of those salts are really the cool thing
is in nature you get potassium, and a lot,
you get potassium and sodium and good ratios
right.
So avocados actually have sodium, celery potassium
and sodium, C vegetable.
Right.
So all these natural foods [inaudible], these
broccoli cauliflower got potassium and sodium.
So if you’re consuming a lot of those things
and then salting your food up to your desired
case.
I don’t think you need to go beyond that.
Not like I’m shoveling salt in your mouth.
They just flush you out right.
Probably just move your bowels, could you
loose stools but instead just salting up to
your taste.
And even if you’ve been told to be on a low
salt diet, it’s kind of like what you were
saying there, Dr. J you know, basically once
you, once your insulin goes down, you turn
a lower carb diet or if you are doing some
fasting, your insulin is going to drop down
and when you when you drop insulin, you start
to excrete sodium.
With that sodium comes the water so you need
to replace that.
So adding in these good trace mineral rich
foods, even grass fed meets you’re very rich
and in minerals, a lot of good salts and they’re
really really good stuff.
Dark green leafy sea vegetable, a lot of things
we we just talked about, fermented foods,
olives, pickles, sauerkraut, all really really
good stuff when it comes to trace minerals.
So getting those in your diet and then just
salting up your desired taste, really good.
And then I mean it’s really as simple as this
when it when we’re talking about taking Redmond’s
real salt or Himalayan salt.
Yes a little pinch on your on your finger
and put it on your tongue.
Specially noticing that you’re just feeling
a little bit dizzy or especially a lot of
people when they start intermittent fasting
or if they start going in a low carb diet,
they feel a little bit dizzy, a little bit
spacey and oftentimes that’s an electrolyte
issue.
So just taking a pinch of salt putting it
on your tongue, drinking you know, two to
four ounces of water and shrinking a little
water after that can knock that out right
away.
I’ve also seen people with allergy symptoms,
certain having like a runny nose and coughing
things like that, taking a little bit of salt
and water actually acts as a natural antihistamine.
Dissolution, yeah because histamine actually,
one of its jobs in Doctor, Doctor Batman is
who I helped in that book he talks about it
talks about histamine helps triaged water
so we become dehydrated.
We triaged water into organ systems that are
most vital, like the brain, heart rate.
And so therefore the mucous membranes get
less of it.
So we’re more likely to have allergic type
responses right and plus we have elevated
histamine in our system.
So when we hydrate the body, get the electrolytes
in, naturally reduces that histamine response
and we get more balanced, more balanced histamine
response, therefore, less of the congestion
right runny nose things like that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
Yeah, totally makes sense.
Love it, love it. and then what’s your favorite
brand for a good mineral salt?
Redmond’s Real Salt?
Dr. David Jockers:
Redmond’s Salt is great.
Absolutely.
That’s what I think.
I think it’s a little bit lower costs than
Himalayan, Himalayan sea salt a great one,
Celtic is a good one.
So any of those are great.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
And then just people listening.
It’s not just sodium chloride, your typical
table salt would be sodium chloride.
It’ll be bleached as well.
So we’re talking about salt that have you
know 60 70 different micro minerals as well
as just sodium chloride.
So you’re getting a lot more in there.
I think that’s phenomenal.
What’s number two.
Dr. Jockers?
Dr. David Jockers:
Yes.
So we talked about the water in the electrolytes
obviously we’ve got to start with that.
Number two is really controlling your stress
and focusing on good sleep.
So most people understand this but you know
we’re under stress, we’re gonna be elevating
our blood sugars, so higher amounts of stress
hormone are telling our body we’re in a place
of fight or flight and when we’re in place
or fight or flight we think we might need
to sprint at any moment with survival.
Right so our bodies naturally can elevate
our blood sugar, and when we do that, then
you know if we’re not running, so we’re just
stressed out like we’re sitting in traffic,
whatever it is, your spouse says something,
and we’re stressed out about it ,we’re elevating
our blood sugar but we’re not giving the response
the body needs which would be to run or lift
something, I had to climb a tree so therefore
we just end up with this elevated blood sugars
in the body towns out some insulin to help
lower that blood sugar, high blood sugar can
be toxic, can actually cause damage to the
nerve system, cause advanced location and
products, all kinds of all kinds of oxidative
stress, so the body gets insulin up to take
the sugar out of the bloodstream and of course,
when insulin is up, that’s going to inhibit
the production of ketone to burn fat.
So insulin being elevated because of the stress
response is going to cause you to not be able
to burn fat, not get into ketosis, and therefore
it’s also going to cause kind of this spiral
where you’re going to end up with hypoglycemia,
because oftentimes you’ll drop that blood
sugar too low.
Yeah.
And another stress response and this is a
vicious cycle, you’ve got to really keep your
stress under control.
Why I never tell anybody to start intermittent
fasting or start a ketogenic diet.
If you’re already overwhelmed by stress, like
if you would describe your life you’d say,
I’m just overwhelmed by stress.
Not a good time for you know a ketogenic diet
or fast.
That’s more for somebody that’s got stress
under control.
Now these are hacks that are going to really
take really improve your body’s ability to
be more resilient to stress, to improve your
fat burning, improve your brain, down regulate
inflammation really powerfully.
But first you have to get your stress under
control and you’ve got to get your sleep under
control because if you don’t sleep well, then
you’re you’re naturally going to be under
a higher amount of stress.
If you get if you’re getting consistent poor
nights of sleep, even if you don’t feel stressed
out during the day you’re going to have higher
stress hormones which is again going to cause
that cascade of high blood sugar and high
insulin.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
Totally makes sense, and I see an email in
my inbox that you sent me a couple of days
ago for your newsletter and you talked about
some of your favorite adaptogens.
Yes.
Again this is kind of what you probably plug
in on the supplements that outside of diet
and lifestyle modifications.
I imagine you’re probably using some adaptogens
to help modulate this stress response.
Is that true?
Dr. David Jockers:
Oh absolutely.
I love [inaudible].
A great one.
Magnolia fish [inaudible] reishi mushroom.
Yeah.
Lemon bomb right.
Very good relaxing herbs.
If you want more energy, something like Rhodiola.
Really good siberian ginseng.
Another great one for energy.
Right.
The great thing about adaptogens is they’re
going to help balance you.
So if you feel anxious, all right, and jittery,
they’re going to help bring you down, if you
feel fatigued and lethargic, they’re going
to help bring you up. and that’s the great
thing about them.
They just kind of modulate and help balance
you out.
Also a huge fan of magnesium too.
Know I find that most people are deficient
in magnesium some magnesium can be really
really powerful for helping modulate the stress
response, modulation means balancing.
Right.
That’s what we want.
You know we don’t necessarily want to increase
or decrease.
We want what the body needs at the moment.
Right.
We want to help balance it out, so we were
able to adapt to the environment adapt to
the stressors we’re under and be able to perform
at our highest level.
So those are those herbs and Magnesium here
are key.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
That makes sense because people I think forget
like, they’re so focused on their diet.
Hey I’m trying to keep these carbohydrates
down because these eventually will break down
into glucose or fructose in my body and have
potentially a negative effect at burning fats
or cause insulin resistance.
People forget that their cortisol levels can
create surges of glucose through either protein
in their body or just releasing glycogen that’s
already in their muscles and that can be the
equivalent of having an extra carbohydrate
that you wouldn’t want to eat but eat you’re
not even eating it, it’s being released internally
from these different stores and you can still
have deleterious effects, so the adaptogens
like you mentioned I think are great, just
getting those glute four receptors upregulated
on the muscle, these are little fingers that
help pull glucose into the muscle and you
can do that by movement, by taking a walk
after after an hour, or doing some bands or
some resistance training to help soak up a
lot of that glucose, that’s really good points.
Dr. David Jockers:
Yeah absolutely.
So important.
A third big thing is to you know basically,
you want to gradually move into Keto adaptations.
So for some individuals I say about 25% percent
of the population they can start today.
They might have eaten 500, 500 grams of carbs
yesterday for twenty five percent of the population.
They can go down to 20 carbs and actually
feel great within the first week.
That’s only 25 percent the population.
The other 75 percent is gonna feel really
crappy.
Yeah.
So what we want to do to be on the safe side
is, gradually reduce your carbohydrate load.
So if you were to take it for example, if
you were to take this week or the next three
days and just count out how many carbohydrates
you’re consuming, right.
Subtract the fiber, so your net carbs, total
carbs minus fiber that you consume on a daily
basis, you keep track of your your macros
and you can use like chronometer or something
like that.
See, see where your carbohydrate load is.
Let’s say you’re consuming 250 grams of total
carbs, right, in a day.
OK great.
So for the first week, all you do is you reduce
it down by 50 grams.
So for the first week, you’re going down to
200 grams of net carbs.
So total carbs minus fiber, you replace that
with a couple grams of, well not a little
bit more than a couple, but roughly about
10 grams of healthy fat.
Right.
So you eat a little bit, eat a few more olives,
you know, a teaspoon of olive oil something
along those lines, you just add that and while
you take out the carbs, and then you do that
each week you drop it down roughly about 50
grams each week.
So if you started at 250, you know, by the
time you get into the ketogenic range, it’s
roughly between 20 grams to 50 grams.
It’s about five or six weeks.
Right.
So you give your body time to start to adapt
and build the metabolic machinery to be able
to run on a lower carbohydrate diet and use
fat for fuel.
And I think that’s a big thing.
A lot of people try to jump right in, they
try to go cold turkey and have a bad experience
when you gradually shift into it.
So you’re leaning into it, shifting into it.
You give your body time to build the metabolic
machinery to get more familiar with that with
ketones in the bloodstream.
Right.
So if you’re eating 250 grams of carbs a day,
your body has not seen ketones.
It doesn’t.
It’s not familiar with how to use them for
energy.
You’ve got to give it some time to see that
in the bloodstream then it’s going to up regulate
the enzymatic systems to sort to use that
for fuel.
So that’s a really important strategy.
Just keep dropping it down roughly 40 to 50
grams of carbohydrates, replacing that with
healthy fat or in some cases, healthy protein
if you’re on a very low protein diet, but
replacing that until you get into that 20
to 50 gram range.
And typically for somebody at sedentary.
So if you’re not doing a lot of movement,
you’re going to need to get your net carbs
down in that 20, is certainly under 30 range
and some in some cases under 20 if you’re
very insulin resistant, you’re more active.
You could find that you’re going to get into
a state of nutritional ketosis which is zero
point five million miles or higher when you’re
testing your blood ketones with, you know,
you probably are going to be able to handle
up to 50 grams of net carbs and be in that
range.
And if you’re extremely active high level
athlete maybe they’ll take up to 100 hundred
and twenty grams in that carbs.
So you got to kind of find the right zone
for you.
So once you get into that zone, I tell you,
you know my recommendation is spend 30 days
in that zone.
I think 30 days in nutritional ketosis is
extremely powerful for helping clean up cellular
debris reset your systems.
I mean ketones, epigenetic modulators.
So they help to help your body to express
genes are gonna have more anti aging benefits,
are going to help upregulate mitochondria
and support healthy mitochondria.
So you spent 30 days in that and then you
find a good carb cycling strategy after that.
Right.
For some people they like to carb cycle, you
know, every other day, for some people it’s
you know once every 10 days, where you have
a higher carb day where basically you’re..
you’re consuming more carbohydrates roughly
somewhere between 50 and maybe up to one hundred
and fifty grams of of net carbs depending
on you.
So if you tend to be more insulin resistance,
you might do less.
Like for me I tend to be more insulin resistant
so I..
For me it’s like a higher carb day might be
70 or 80 grams of net carbs.
OK.
Whereas for somebody else they may be able
to tolerate a little bit more especially if
they’re very very active.
So you’ve got to kind of find the right zone
for you and then you drop back into ketosis.
OK, find again, find the right strategy.
So for some people they’ll do a feast day
once a week, where they’re like one day a
week where you know, they’re eating 150 grams
or 100 grams net carbs, so just consuming
more carbs and for them that works great.
Right.
And then usually takes them two days or so
to get back into ketosis.
If you do a high carb day like that and it
takes you a week to get back into ketosis,
then you really shouldn’t be carb cycling
once a week right then you would probably
want to carb cycle like once every two weeks
once every month.
Something along those lines.
That way you’re you’re splitting your time
right.
You want to spend some time where your body
is utilizing glucose right for fuel and basically
resetting your glycogen stores.
You also want to spend time in this state
of nutritional ketosis.
You got to find the right carbs cycling approach,
and the strategy I like to apply is more of
a carb backloading strategy.
Yeah I like to eat less during the day I eat
less food during the day hydrate.
I do a lot of hydration during the day, keeps
my energy high.
It allows me to perform at a higher level
because stress is the antagonist to good digestion,
meaning that when we’re under stress, we’re
not gonna be able to produce as much stomach
as–
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
Correct.
Dr. David Jockers:
The bile pancreatic enzymes to digest our
food well so I like to do more smoothies ,right,
things that are predigested during daytime.
I’ll throw avocado in my my protein shakes
so I get more healthy fats.
But the blender is the job of the digestion
and then the evening that’s when I feast,
right.
That’s when I had my big meal meat, right.
Vegetables.
Healthy fats on there.
And I find that that approach works well and
especially if you’re going to add in more
carbs, doing a lower carb during the day.
So if you want to eat solid foods, eggs, right.
Maybe like a big chicken salad with olives,
and I’ll add avocado and olive oil or something
like that where it’s low carb throughout the
day and then when you add in the carbs, you
do it more in the evening, your sweet potato,
right, or your your steamed carrots, beets,
if you want grains something like Quinoa or
or rice or something along those lines, doing
it more in the evening you’re going to notice
it.
That’s going to get better benefits.
A lot of research on that for helping stimulate
fat burning, right and supporting the sensitivity.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
Some people, one of the side effects with
Keto sometimes sleep can deteriorate and that
could be from a hypoglycemic kind of episode
before bed.
So if that’s happening, maybe adding a tiny
bit of carbs or even a tablespoon of coconut
oil to provide some more of those ketone precursors
before bed to keep that blood sugar and add
an additional fuel source outside of the blood
sugar in your bloodstream.
Dr. David Jockers:
Yeah yeah for sure.
Absolutely.
And I think if you do the slow keto adaptation
approach you’ll notice less of a hypoglycemia.
Which will definitely help you.
Your bio get better and better at using ketones.
But a big thing that I do see is that people
aren’t feasting.
Right.
So if you’re under eating for a certain portion
of the day you’re eating a lower amount of
calories in the evening.
Definitely eat a higher amount of calories
right to make up for it.
And that is a mistake I see a lot of people
make is they reduce the carbs but they don’t
they’re not as generous with the fat.
And therefore, they end up not just not consuming
enough calories which can then cause the hypoglycemic
type issues especially for like lean women.
I see that a lot of lean women having that
issue don’t have as much body fat.
The body’s trying to protect the body fat
tissue.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
I see that all the time.
You don’t get enough fat in there to replace
some of the carbs that are pulled out, then
you could still be in a caloric deficit and
that can still create a stress response.
So I think that’s really important because
the whole goal is we have this kind of fuel
partitioning mechanism imagine like an air
traffic controller.
Right.
Planes come in.
You point this way, you point that way, imagine
an air traffic controller saying, OK go to
the mitochondria get burnt up or go back into
the fat cells and get burnt up get get stored.
So we want to be an air traffic controller
shuttling everyone to the mitochondria, to
the muscle cell to get burnt and not get stored.
And we have to change these cellular enzymes.
We need more lipolytic, right, lipo meaning
fat, lytic meaning to break down some more
lipolytic hormone, sensitive light pace Growth
Hormone thyroid hormone versus insulin, lin
lipo eugenic hormones on the storing or formation
side.
So I think what you’re saying these are just
basically unregulated that air traffic control,
what if they get burnt up and this cellular
energy can’t be snapped on and the more insulin
resistant you are like you’re highlighting,
this may take a few weeks maybe even a month
and you’re having a tapering protocol just
so it’s not so painful.
So you don’t develop this Keto flu type of
thing where you’re you’re tired, you’re achy.
Correct?
Dr. David Jockers:
Oh yeah absolutely.
So the keto flu is going to be related to
hypoglycemia, you know the light imbalances
like we talked about and HIPAA axis dysfunction
or you know we’ll be college adrenal fatigue.
Right.
So it’s kind of a combination of all three
of those and they all work together.
So you’re absolutely spot on and we want to
be able to adapt and teach the body to be
able to run and use fats for fuel.
Right.
That’s the key there.
Now another caveat to it.
And Justin, you probably test fasting insulin
on your patients is that correct?
Yes.
So I test that on all my patients right fasting
insulin levels, and so normally if you’re
fasting for 12 to 14 hours you finished dinner
let’s say 6:00 p.m.
You’re doing your bloodwork at 8:00 a.m. something
along those lines.
Your ideal fasting insulin should be roughly
somewhere around three to five right in that
range.
If you’re on the lower end, they’re like two
three.
OK, you probably need to do a little bit more
carb cycling, you probably need a bump that
insulin a little bit more.
OK if you’re on the higher end right.
There’s a lot of people out there you know
they’re they’re insulin levels fasting insulin
is 12 14 16.
These are people that are going to do better
doing fasting, right.
Intermittent Fasting, longer fasting, and
lower carb throughout the day to get that
insulin level down.
OK.
So that’s another caveat getting your fasting
insulin levels tested.
That’s going to help you understand your carb
tolerance right.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
Just kind of piggyback on that, Christopher
Gardner did an amazing study out of Stanford
in 2007 called, The A to Z Study, and this
study was interesting because he compared
four different kinds of diets– he compared
and Atkins style diet, and Ornish kind of
you know higher carbohydrate more vegetarian
diet, the Zone diet which is like a 40 30
30 and then I think a standard American diet.
So there were four diets and it was interesting
because the Atkins group, the lower carb group
had the largest amount of success.
But then there were still people that were
successful in other groups and then they looked
at the people and they tried to extrapolate
why a lot of people in the act is that great.
But why.
There were some people in other groups and
what they found in the higher carbohydrate
groups, the people that did well were the
ones that had their fasting insulin below
seven.
So in other words, the people that were more
insulin sensitive, meaning their pancreas
made the less insulin, they could tolerate
the higher carbohydrates and that threshold
was seven anything greater than 7 they could
not tolerate the higher carb, and they only
got success on the lower carb group because
that helped bring their insulin back into
balance.
And I agree that study this seven I like two
to five, I think gets a good point and I think
this is really important people listen like
you know we’re practitioners so, we understand
that there are some people that do well not
following that exactly and the question is
why?
We don’t want to be dogmatic and say no.
Everyone has to and it’s a rule it’s tough
but we have to understand why there may be
some exceptions and that’s I think one of
the biggest data points that we can use to
say hey these are the people that are going
to benefit these you may be able to break
the rules a bit and then we can actually have
some objective data on that.
Dr. David Jockers:
Yeah, absolutely because you do need insulin,
you need insulin in particular for converting
T four and T three.
So you’re active thyroid hormone and if you
don’t get that, know this is where we’ll see
people start to for example lose hair, when
they get really really fatty, they get constipated,
they get really really cold, when they’re
fasting, or on a ketogenic diet it’s a sign
that it probably ban under consuming calories
right as a whole.
And possibly not carb cycling enough.
Right.
And that’s really big.
So even on a low even on a low carb diet,
if you do like a very high calorie meal once
a day.
OK.
So where you’re doing like maybe under eating,
lower amounts of calories for a period of
time and then of a larger meal, your body
is going to still secrete a lot of insulin
like on a low carb diet.
When you.
Eat a lot of food your body’s excrete a lot
of insulin.
OK.
And so you want to get at least, unless you’re
like in a period where you’re just doing an
extended fast for a specific reason, you want
to get a really good shot of insulin at least
once a day.
I really once no more than twice a day in
my opinion.
OK.
But you want it when you do get it, you want
to get a good shot of it.
What happens is in our society it’s like people
are just continually spiking it because we’re
eating all the time right.
We’re eating every several hours just continually
getting spikes of insulin that promotes too
much inflammation right.
Insulin is going to activate your inflammatory
home right and amplify inflammation throughout
your body.
But if you strategically get it, once, maybe
twice a day.
Right, a really good spike of it then that’s
going to get.
That’s the right amount to activate thyroid
hormone to enhance cellular energy production
is a lot of good benefits that are going to
come from that.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
I think that’s great.
And what’s your strategy on mealtime and I
know we’ve talked about this as, I think for
a while you were doing kind of o mad one meal
a day.
How are you timing your meals and then how
do you dial that in for patients exact.
Dr. David Jockers:
So here’s how I do it personally now.
I’m about one hundred, one hundred sixty five
pounds strong, I’m an 8 percent body fat it’s
mostly just muscle tissue, and the way I do
it is I workout four days a week, when I workouts
very intense strength training, so I’m usually
working out for about 45 minutes or so strength
training.
Monday Tuesday Thursday Friday are typically
my spring training days and what I do is on
Wednesday, and on Saturday, I only do one
meal one meal on those days, usually it’s
lunch dates, whatever’s most convenient for
me I’m usually eating lunch I find that I
just do best at that time.
Right so one o’clock, two o’clock, something
like that having a really good really good
solid lunch and then that’s it, you know just
hydrating outside of that and then on the
other days, I’m consuming two meals, lunch
and dinner, right now typically my dinners
are usually my largest meal of the day.
I’m consuming a lot of a lot of food right.
I mean I’ll easily consume fifteen hundred
calories or so, you know a typical dinner.
All right.
And usually my lunch, if not, I mean I probably
could even consume two thousand calories,
my dinner and my lunch is usually probably
somewhere around five hundred eight hundred
calories, somewhere in that range.
OK.
And yeah that’s how I do it and I function
amazing in fact my best sleep.
My heart rate variability gets really high
on my fasting days so when I’m, when I’m sleeping.
Wednesday night and Saturday night it’s like
I wake up the next day.
I just feel amazing like so good.
And that’s why I do it.
In fact if I didn’t lose weight.
When I would do one meal a day if I didn’t
lose weight when I get it.
So what happens is I tried that and I started
losing muscle.
I started losing weight and I’m already very
lean as it is, very very thin.
Five foot eleven hundred and sixty hundred
sixty five pounds so so I feel amazing when
I’m fasting but obviously I don’t want to
lose weight.
So.
So that’s why I do the two meals five days
a week.
One meal two days a week seems to work amazing
for me.
Now when I do eat, I eat a lot of food.
My wife’s always like, wow I’m fond of food.
So in order to be able to digest that food
effectively at its most effective level.
I think a lot of digestive enzymes.
OK.
From time to time, if I’m under more stress,
I’ll take a little bit of stomach acid support
it would be THCL.
Typically speaking a bunch of digestive enzymes
works great for me.
OK.
And that works well and then I also take a
supplement that has Curcumin, Turmeric, right.
It’s also got a whole bunch of bitter herbs.
It’s called fermented turmeric right.
It’s got a bunch of different bitter herbs
are really good for stimulating digestive
juices production.
So I think a combination of those and my digestion
is great.
OK.
And that’s right I feel really good with it.
And that’s typically my lunch most days, my
lunch is liquid nutrition so usually I’m making
a smoothie with Collagen protein.
Yeah.
Coconut milk, avocado in there.
That’s usually my lunch and I might munch
on like a cucumber that that I cut up and
put some lemon juice on, some salt and some
herbs.
Right.
Or maybe radishes.
I’m crunching you know, chewing on some radishes.
So it’s usually some sort of raw vegetable.
Along with this sort of smoothie.
And then for dinner it’s usually a lot of
meat.
So whether it’s grass fed beef, or we do like
grass fed beef hotdogs and I’m familiar with
those.
Yeah those were great.
Lots of vegetables so like steamed broccoli
or cauliflower to make up mashed potatoes,
and cauliflower all times calling mashed potatoes,
broccoli with butter.
So we do a lot of that.
You know we started using this thing called
[inaudible].
Now if you’re familiar with that, it’s hearts
of palm, it’s pasta.
It’s pasta with hearts of palm and then it’s
great.
My wife makes this amazing pesto right.
We put pesto on that which has got olive oil
and avocado and pine nuts and all kinds of
stuff like that.
So it’s just a scrape,we put chicken with
that.
So different things, different meals like
that.
So typically how I’m doing it.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
That’s great.
Excellent.
I did something similar as well typically
in my day in day out.
I’m having some level of coffee in the morning
with some butter at MCT and a little bit of
collagen and that’s my breakfast, somewhere
at three four hours later, I’ll have a nice
glass of celery juice and I’m definitely drinking
mineral water throughout the day ,and then
my lunch is going to be a big salad typically,
it’ll be about four, maybe five servings of
vegetables, it’ll be a full avocado maybe
six to eight ounces of chicken chicken thigh,
or chicken breast with skin on and then an
olive oil, olive oil apple cider kind of sea
salt pepper type of salad, and then dinner
will be some level of non starchy veg if maybe
a little bit of starch, in there squash or
sweet potatoes, and then mostly meat and vegetables,
and then typically my Saturday, is my wife
and I will have a date night and we’ll do
like a steak restaurant and now I’ll just
fast all day and I’ll just that one meal when
I go out to eat.
Typically that one day it’s nice.
I’ll still do coffee with a little bit MCT
just to kind of start my day off and get those
ketones up and then I’ll just kind of ride
that high all day long.
And people listening if you have a lot of
hormone issues or thyroid issues or blood
sugar issues, you have to have some level
of one metabolic stamina imbalance before
you do it and to have that really good digestion
like you mentioned, because now your meal
is probably twice as big when you eat at nighttime
and you really need the enzymes in the acids
and good digestive function to be able to
handle that load.
Dr. David Jockers:
Yeah I mean I think that’s really really important
is you know, for me for example, I don’t actually
get hungry.
I don’t feel hungry throughout the day.
I don’t get hungry till I start eating.
Once I start eating, I’m like OK my body wakes
up it’s like, OK I need a lot I need food,
right.
And that’s actually when I get hungry.
So for me it’s very liberating, fasting is
so liberating because I don’t I just need
to think about food, I’m not hungry I don’t
have cravings my body feels great my brain
feels amazing feels alive so it’s so good.
But you’re right I mean fasting is a level
of fitness.
It’s kind of like you know if you were just
if you, if you’ve never exercised and then
you think OK I’m going to do a 5k and I’m
going to sprint 5K obviously it’s not going
to happen right.
You’re going to be so sore and beat up so
you’ve got to kind of lean into it right.
I always said people start with twelve hours
overnight–
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
12 to 12 is the easiest to start with, you
know, 7 to 7 or 8 to 8.
Dr. David Jockers:
Simple fast just like that, and then do the
water like we talked about in beginning it.
Yes.
You just hydrate your body well in the morning
and allow for the natural hunger to come out,
for a lot of people they notice 14 hours easy.
Like my kids they finished dinner with us.
We’re usually done eating dinner by 6:30.
My kids sleep till like 8:30 in the morning.
I don’t know if, I don’t know if, if if you’re
if your child is like that too.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
Same way same way and it’s all nutrition based.
Like my son for dinner last night I mean he
had a grass fed organic hot dog, a cut of
avocado.
And then he’s having a hard time with green
vegetables.
We’re getting green beans with sea salt on
an organic green drink no added sugar no fruit
juice in there and that will kind of pile
that throughout the day and its meal.
So yeah.
I see kids that wake up.
It’s all a lot of it’s blood sugar and it’s
not getting enough fat.
If that is humanly you gotta have that.
Dr. David Jockers:
Yeah.
So important got to have the fat so my kids
will go well we’ll finish there by 6:30.
We get him in bed by 8:30.
They sleep till 8:30.
They wake up.
They take a bath right by the time they get
breakfast.
It’s usually like 9:30 or so.
Right there.
I mean they’re getting late and they’re fast
growing kids, three and a half year olds.
Right.
So they’re getting like a 15 hour fast right
there.
Yes.
And that’s because we have and they’re not
on a ketogenic diet.
They are, they’re definitely consuming carbs.
Healthy carbs but they always have the healthy
fats and they’re still on a lower carbohydrate
template than your typical modern Americans
,or your typical sad diet.
And so because of that they have better metabolic
flexibility right.
They’re able to go 15 hours here without consuming
food.
So what I find is that for most people 14
hours as long as you hydrate well as long
as you’re sleeping well.
Right.
Doing those things.
Not an issue.
Right.
And then especially if you do feel like you’re
overwhelmed with stress or if you tend to
be like a very lean woman or a lean woman
that’s doing a lot of exercise.
OK then one thing we’ll try to do is something
called crescendo fasting, I’m not sure if
you’re familiar with that now but that’s basically
where we do a 16 hour fast.
Two days a week.
Non consecutive days.
So be like a Monday Friday.
Right.
So fasting is a stressor on the body just
like exercise is a stressor.
So exercise may you know exercise is great,
but if you do exercise five days in a row.
Right.
It will too stressful on the body.
Yeah.
I don’t recommend exercising more than two
days in a row.
After two days.
I recommend taking a rest day.
Like for me I do upper body.
One day and then a lower body the next day
and then the next day is always on resting.
OK.
So unless you’re like a high level athlete
I wouldn’t wreck it there’s just no reason
you actually the recovery is is where you
get the most benefit.
Right.
You need to recover.
So two days in a row.
Same thing with fasting especially if you’re
new at it or if you’ve been under stress or
if you tend to be leaner.
Leaner female then not doing it more than
two days in a row and ideally a better way
to start would be two non consecutive days
a week, Monday Friday for example.
Or your, your least stressful days like just
you’re doing your long fast on a Saturday.
Yep.
Less stress on Saturday you’re hanging out
with the family.
Yeah.
So it’s easier for you.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
Exactly.
Well Dr. David this is amazing.
Lots of great tips.
I think people that are listening to a lot
of these tips are clinical as well.
So we’re in the trenches working with patients
so these aren’t theoretical things you know
things that actually works out you know take
it to heart, try to find at least one thing
in this podcast that resonates and try to
apply it.
I think there’s some great information and
for all you out there, head over to DrJockers.com.
Make sure you subscribe to his email list.
Also Keto Edge Summit, we’ll put a link down
below if you guys are listening, just click
there.
Make sure you sign up to get access to all
the great speakers and great content that’s
available.
Dr. Jockers, anything else you’d like to leave
the listeners with today?
Dr. David Jockers:
Yeah, I would just I would say, you know,
definitely the Keto Edge Summit is great,
we talk about all these types of things how
to get fat adapted more effectively, how to
kind of lean into fat agitation, like I was
talking about before how to navigate through
you know things like the Keto flu, how to
prevent getting it and you know the tremendous
benefits that can come from a state of nutritional
ketosis.
You know I’m a huge fan of diet variation,
meaning that you’re not always in ketosis.
Well I mean I would say some people probably
about 20 percent of the population, 20 25
percent that will do great.
Being in ketosis, you’re rounds right.
But then you have the other 75 to 80 percent
that are not going to do good.
Being in ketosis your rounds.
They need to cycle in and out.
Right.
You know for whatever period of time works
best for them.
So we go through that, Keto Edge Summit, and
you know it’s really the goal of personalized
nutrition.
You know there’s there’s no cookie cutter
approach.
You got a kind of find what works best for
your own unique individuality.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
Dr. Jockers, thank you so much for all this
great information.
We’ll be in touch.
You take care.
Dr. David Jockers:
Alright sounds good.
Thank you.
Dr. Justin Marchegiani:
Bye.