Fasting Questions Answered with Dr. Jason Fung –  CHTV 160

Fasting Questions Answered with Dr. Jason Fung – CHTV 160

July 28, 2019 21 By William Morgan


Meredith:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Cellular Healing
TV.
I’m your host, Meredith Dykstra, and this
is Episode #160.
We have our resident cellular healing specialist,
Dr. Dan Pompa, on the line, and today we welcome
back Dr. Jason Fung.
Dr. Jason had a very popular episode with
us on Cell TV, and that was Episode 112.
If you didn’t check that out or if you haven’t
seen it before, you can watch it at podcast.drpompa.com,
and search for Episode 112 there.
Dr. Fung is a fasting expert.
In this initial episode, we delved into the
ins and outs of fasting.
We talked about interim fasting and block
fasting.
You guys just love that episode.
We have well over 200,000 views already on
YouTube, and it’s been in a lot of other
places.
There was a lot of amazing feedback, too.
You guys loved it but had a lot of questions
so want to do a followup episode with Dr.
Fung just to get some more questions answered
on fasting.
Before we jump in, Dr. Fung, what’s new?
What’s been going on?
You’ve had a few books come out since our
last interview.
Give us the update.
Dr. Fung:
The Obesity Code was my first book.
That was released in about February, March
of 2016.
It really talks mostly about the science of
what causes weight gain.
My whole thesis is that you really have to
understand what causes weight gain, what causes
type 2 diabetes, in order to effectively treat
that.
At the end of the book, I touch on intermittent
fasting and also extended fasting because
the whole point is that insulin is the main
driver of obesity.
One way to lower insulin is not with drugs
because drugs generally don’t do that, but
low-carbohydrate diets work.
If you want to get the ultimate, fasting where
you don’t eat anything really helps prevent
the insulin resistance, which is the long-term
problem.
I spent the last chapter on it, but there’s
a lot to talk about in terms of fasting.
There’s lots of questions in terms of what
regimens to use, what problems come up, what
sort of things to expect because there are
different things that happen, how long you
need to get used to it, that kind of thing.
There’s really not a lot of resources out
there, so I co-wrote with Jimmy Moore The
Complete Guide to Fasting, which came out
in October of last year.
There it is.
This really is a more practical guide to—sort
of a how-to book.
It has a lot of the science of fasting, but
it goes with the other book so you get a complete
understanding of why you’re doing it and
so on.
It really answers most of the questions that
probably have come up in terms of what to
do about medications, what to watch out for,
when you have to be careful, and those sort
of questions.
That was October of last year, and it’s
been out for a couple of months.
It’s done very well.
I hope that people are able to read it, and
take that information, and go forward, and
give themselves an option in terms of weight
loss because it’s not like you have to [00:03:27]
terrific.
Dr. Pompa:
You broke up there a little.
Dr. Fung:
Oh, sorry.
Dr. Pompa:
Did he break up on your side, there?
Meredith:
Yeah, a little bit of a delay.
Dr. Pompa:
Can you hear me, Doc?
I hope you can hear me.
Meredith has so many questions, there.
I want to turn it to her.
I’ll just say this: first of all, thank
you for your work.
I became friends with Jimmy Moore, who I know
put some efforts into this, as well.
Jimmy, fasting has made a massive impact in
his life, insulin resistance.
I can’t speak for Jimmy, but just hearing
him, fasting probably had the greatest influence.
No doubt ketosis and those things, but fasting
really transformed him.
I train hundreds of doctors around the country.
Part of my multi-therapeutic approach is fasting:
block fasting and daily intermittent fasting.
Doc, we utilize all of them, and we’ve seen
absolutely amazing results.
To have something like this book that really
gives people some basics, it really is a complete
guide to fasting, so appreciate the book,
no doubt.
I hope all of our listeners and viewers get
it, no doubt about it because fasting, I believe,
is—humans are meant to do it because we
are forced into it, like you said.
Is there a need for it today?
I don’t know.
I think if you have challenges, I’ve watched
miracles happen with fasting.
However, I believe that something happens
with the gene code when we fast, or go into
forced ketonic states, and all these amazing
things.
I think there’s more to it than we even
think.
With that said, Meredith, let’s just go
right after it.
We all love fasting.
Meredith:
We sure do, and we’ve got to walk the talk,
right?
It is amazing, the amazing strategy of it.
Thank you, Dr. Pompa.
You taught me all about fasting, as well.
I had a lot of fears, just like so many people
out there.
As Dr. Fung and I were speaking about before
we started the episode is that we just have
to untrain our minds and our culture which
has such fears around fasting.
There’s so much misinformation out there.
As we share today and continue to share, hopefully
all of you will get more information on fasting
and share it with those you love, too, because
it is a transformative strategy.
With that said, let’s jump in here.
A lot of these questions are posted on the
YouTube page for Episode 112 of Cellular Healing
TV, so I’ll just give an overview.
We get this question a lot: does meal timing
matter when we’re eating during our feeding
window?
When we’re not fasting, does it matter if
we eat breakfast and lunch?
What if we just eat lunch, or what if we eat
lunch and dinner?
Does the meal timing matter?
Is it specific to people?
Is a certain way of doing it, perhaps just
eating dinner, better?
What are both of your thoughts there?
Dr. Fung:
Yeah, I think it does make a difference.
First of all, with everything, there is actually
large inter-individual variation.
Even though you can say one time is best,
it may not actually be the best for you specifically.
You have to always keep that in mind.
You see this with almost every dietary study.
You do a low-carb study [00:07:10] on average,
people lose this amount of weight, but there’s
actually a huge splay.
Some people lose 50 pounds, and some people
gain 10.
Just because the average is a certain number
doesn’t mean that it necessarily is the
best for you.
Always keep that in mind whenever you’re
looking at things.
We talk in averages because that’s all we
can do.
If you look at the circadian rhythm, there’s
a natural body rhythm.
The least hungry you’re going to be in the
day is 8 a.m.
That’s for several reasons.
One of them is that the body produces, just
before you wake up, a counter-regulatory surge
of hormones that includes norepinephrine,
and growth hormone, and cortisol [00:07:57]
your body for the day, so you’re actually
trying to get some glucose into the system
and so on.
You’re actually not hungry.
This is, when you look at large groups of
people, you’re the least hungry at 8 a.m.
even though, at 8 a.m. is the longest that
you have been without food.
What you have to understand is that hunger
is not merely the absence of food in your
stomach.
That’s only one component.
This is one of the things that fasting has
taught a lot of people is that their hunger
actually tends to go down the longer that
they do the fasting, but 8 a.m. is the least
hungry you’re going to be through the day.
Forcing yourself to eat at 8 a.m. if you’re
not hungry is not a winning strategy, right?
If you look at the nighttime, so late-night
eating, 8 p.m. to midnight, for example—what
you see is that for the same amount of food,
you can actually get more of an insulin response,
and insulin is the main driver for weight
gain.
If you’re worried about weight loss, if
you eat late at night, you’re going to have
more insulin effect and therefore, it’s
going to have more of a fattening effect on
you for the same number of calories.
The eating late at night is also not a good
strategy.
If you want to know what the ideal is, I think
it actually lies somewhere in the middle,
eating if you’re going to eat, say, one
meal a day or have the largest meal, I think
it actually makes the most sense to eat somewhere
between 12 to 2 o’clock, something like
that.
Now, that doesn’t work for a lot of people,
myself included.
I’m working, and I’m not about to break
up my office, and go have a big lunch, and
then come back into it.
That doesn’t work at all.
For me, you really have to take that physiologic,
what is best, and fit it into your life.
There are other people who will eat mostly
a big breakfast and do very well.
Physiologically, I think I’d go with the
large mid-afternoon meal if you’re going
to go with a compressed eating window.
I think that is optimal, but you can do very
well eating early in the morning.
You can do well eating late at night.
You see some of this in terms of the folk
wisdom.
You see a lot of people who have always said
throughout the years oh, make sure you don’t
eat right before bed because all of that is
going to turn into fat.
To some extent, that is true.
[00:10:26] late nights, and I would avoid
the early mornings because it’s hard to
really force feed yourself.
Meredith:
What does it mean—I’m just following up
on that.
If you wake up really hungry, what does that
mean?
Dr. Fung:
It doesn’t really mean anything specifically.
Everybody’s different.
Some people, and I’ve treated a lot of people,
they say well, I do best eating a big meal,
a big breakfast.
I’m like you know what, if that is what
works for you, go for it.
On average, people are not as hungry at 8
a.m. as they are in the midday.
A lot of variation [00:11:11] got to find
what works for you.
Dr. Pompa:
I’m going to put this—by the way, my view
on that is the same.
I have some people who—even their schedule.
It has to be successful even within their
work schedule, their social schedule, so a
lot of that determines it.
Can they stick with it?
We want someone to stick with it first and
foremost.
I agree.
I think the perfect big meal is the European
way, right?
Sometime in the afternoon, late afternoon
would be optimal.
Again, I’ve switched my eating window from
maybe one.
I tend to eat more at that time now and then
a lighter meal, say, around five.
I’ve switched that around, but it doesn’t
work on the weekends for me.
My wife and I go out to dinner, so on the
weekends, I switch it out.
You don’t even have to do the same thing
every day.
I agree.
Most people, carrying the fast through the
night, not eating right away in the morning,
I think for most people that works best because
most people are not hungry first thing in
the morning.
I agree.
I’m going to Facebook Live this.
I’m going to put it up there.
Go ahead and ask the next question.
I think people will love this.
Go ahead.
Meredith:
Awesome.
In the middle of a—we’re podcasting, recording,
Facebook Living.
Been loving the social media lately, Dr. Pompa.
I just wanted to followup on that, too.
If you’re suggesting possibly a larger meal
in the middle of the day, the European way,
they suggest a siesta after that.
What kind of effect would that have on our
body composition or insulin response if any?
I’m just curious.
Dr. Fung:
I don’t know that there’s a lot of data
on the siesta, but certainly the old-style
European, because you know a lot of Europeans
are switching more to an American-style eating
schedule, I think is ideal.
They tend to have a big midday meal and then
very light dinner.
I think that works very well.
The siesta, personally, I think is great in
terms of stress reduction, which is one of
the things that is never really talked about
a lot.
Clearly, there’s an effect.
All these stress hormones and if you’re
under a lot of stress, you gain weight, right?
If you’re not sleeping well and you’re
under a lot of stress, you gain weight.
We know that there’s an effect of these
stress hormones.
I wonder often.
Dr. Pompa:
[00:13:45] TV episode, but I wanted to bring
you in live because of the topic.
Jason, meet the Facebook Live people.
They’re going to be watching.
Anyway, go ahead.
Finish your point.
Dr. Fung:
Terrific.
Yeah, as we were just talking about the siesta,
and I think, personally, I love to sleep a
couple hours in the afternoon when I can.
It happens once a year, right?
Sometimes on a Sunday afternoon, I’ll go
oh okay, this is awesome.
I find it just so relaxing.
Sometimes I’m at the cottage, and I get
a little nap in the afternoon.
That is the best I feel all year because it
happens two times a year, right?
My kids always want me to take them fishing
or something, right?
I think there is actually something to that.
I think that the siesta specifically more
relates more to stress, and relaxation, and
so on.
The problem, of course, is we go to these
24/7 worlds where we’re always working or
always checking our emails.
We’re always worrying about this.
We’re always worrying about that.
One of the things that really is important
is to unstress yourself.
Where I think to some [00:14:58] lifestyle
is disappearing, though.
The European relaxed lifestyle, it unfortunately
is disappearing.
On the other hand, if you are able to incorporate
some of these ideas, I think that’s great.
Just following up with Dr. Pompa’s ideas,
our number one rule for fasting is really
to fit it into your life and to really do
something you can stick with long term because
if you do these longer fasts but it completely
breaks up your normal dinner with your family
and you’re not going to social events because
you don’t want to eat, that’s not the
idea.
The idea is to do what you normally do [00:15:42]
and slot it in.
If it’s not a shorter fast, maybe a 16/8
schedule, then that’s what you should do,
not try and force these schedules into your
life and make it something of a big deal.
In the old days in a lot of religions, they
would have prescribed periods of fasting so
it would fit into people’s lives.
Let’s say Greek Orthodox where they have
lots of different fasting days, it does fit
into their life because everybody in their
community is doing it, too.
They’ve already allowed for that Ramadan,
which is the Muslim faith.
There’s lots of different ways—around
Easter, and Lent, and so on.
There are lots of ways that people have used
to build this into their way of life.
That is our most important rule so that you
can keep it up long term because this is not
something you do for a couple of days [00:16:34]
healthy and to stay on top of yourself, to
prevent the illness, not to let it all build
up.
Dr. Pompa:
Doc, we know that research is showing why
so many amazing things happen during fasts.
Healing occurs during fasts, and that’s
why, as you mentioned, it’s throughout history.
Every religious group fasts, everything fasting,
Epocrates.
We go back into history, and we can see that
fasting has been a part of healing in multiple
ways, even emotionally.
Today, I know the gentleman who won the Nobel
Prize last year talks about autophagy being
all these bad cells dying during fasts and
good cells becoming stronger.
What are some of the other reasons that you
have found in your research why so much healing
occurs during fasting?
Dr. Fung:
I think that’s absolutely right.
One of the really powerful things that people
talk about now is the autophagy.
Related to that is this idea that everybody
thinks that breakdown of protein is bad, but
it’s not.
In order for people to stay healthy, what
you’ve got to do is break down all that
old protein and rebuild the new protein.
That’s how the body works.
If you look at bone, for example, our bones
are not static throughout our lives.
There are osteoclasts and osteoblasts.
You’re actually turning over the bone, and
that’s a cycle of renewal.
If you leave that old bone on there all the
time, it will become brittle, and it’ll
snap.
It’s the same with proteins.
If you can take some of that old protein,
break it down, and then rebuild it, it’s
much better.
For example, if you think about renovating
your kitchen or you’re renovating your bathroom,
the first thing you’ve got to do if you
renovate your 1970s bathroom is throw out
that lime green bathtub that’s sitting there,
right?
You simply can’t build and put another bathtub
on top of it.
You’ve got to throw it out, right?
You throw it out, and then you build it again.
If you think about what fasting does, that’s
exactly right.
You have this process that has been recently
described, which is the autophagy, where you
break down this old protein.
On the other hand, you secrete very high levels
of growth hormone, which means that when you
start to eat, your body is going to start
building up this new one.
That’s perfect, right?
It’s a complete renewal cycle.
You’re renovating all your new cells.
That’s incredible.
When people talk about it, there are several
different areas that people are very interested
in.
One is Alzheimer’s disease because we know
in Alzheimer’s disease, you have all this
old junky old protein that’s sitting around
clogging up your brain.
What if you had a process where you could
actually clear it out, and get rid of that
old junky protein, and renew it?
That’s amazing and maybe has the power to
prevent something even as prevalent as Alzheimer’s
disease.
The other thing that people talk about is
cancer cells.
Cancer [00:19:47] your body to throw out some
of this old protein and so on and get rid
of it.
Of course, the other powerful thing is that
it lowers insulin [00:20:01] which is very
well known is that it’s a growth factor.
If stuff is growing, if you’ve got fertile
ground to grow cancer cells, then they’re
going to grow.
If you lock down the glucose and you shut
down the growth factor such as insulin, it’s
like taking away sunlight and water, right?
Those cancer cells just cannot grow in that
kind of environment.
Again, you have here something which is not
a real treatment.
It’s preventative, and that’s the way
we’ve always used it.
Do a week a year, a month a year, a couple
days a week [00:20:38] put a lid on all that
stuff, but it’s a cycle of renewal.
In that sense, it’s almost got an anti-aging
property which is fantastic because this is
what everybody’s looking for, right?
They’re looking for this fountain of youth,
and maybe we’ve had it all along, right?
Isn’t that crazy?
We had it all in front of us all along.
We just decided to ignore it, right?
That’s the crazy part about it.
Dr. Pompa:
We know with fasting that certain genes get
turned on for longevity, the SIRT1 gene, for
example.
We know that bad genes get turned off.
In another study that was—I don’t know.
Maybe it was two years ago.
Maybe it was last year.
They showed that during fast, the proteins,
your immune cells actually get depleted in
a good way.
Then, because the body comes back in an adaptation,
you actually make all these stem cells because
it wants to regenerate these immune cells.
It makes better immune cells, stronger immune
cells.
It starves down the old ones, gets rid of
them, and makes new ones via stem cells.
They were saying that with another recent
fasting in cancer—what works so well for
cancer is the stem cell connection.
I’m sure you’ve read that study.
Dr. Fung:
Yeah, absolutely.
There’s many potential mechanisms, not a
lot of studies in humans, honestly, but so
many interesting things that could come out
of it.
Really, as in medicine, you always look at
what the risk/benefit ratio is.
[00:22:13] benefits aren’t proven.
What’s the risk?
People have been doing it for thousands of
years at least, at least since we became humans.
There’s very little risk to doing it on
a regular basis.
Not like all of a sudden just jumping out
and doing a huge 40-day fast when you’re
on 30 medications, right?
That’s not what we’re talking about, right?
We’re talking about doing it on a regular
basis throughout your life the way people
used to do it, right?
The risk/benefit ratio is just off the charts
because the risk is so low when you do it
on a controlled manner with education, and
the benefits are potentially—look at the
benefits: diabetes, weight loss, cancer [00:23:01]
modern medicine, right?
Diabetes affects so many, anti-aging, so much.
People talk about it in terms of athletics.
People talk about training in a fasting state,
all of these potential things.
One of the things that I think is personally
very interesting that’s topical is also
in terms of mental clarity.
People talk about it in terms of being able
to function better in terms of your mental
clarity because everybody thinks oh, you eat
food to let you concentrate.
It’s actually the exact opposite.
Everybody knows that.
You eat a huge meal, and you get this food
coma.
After Thanksgiving meal, you sit down, and
all you can do is watch TV, whereas when you
don’t eat, your brain is actually able to
work better.
People talk about this mental clarity.
People are using it almost as a biohack.
For example, a group in Silicon Valley, they
meet together, and they’re young, skinny
guys, right?
They don’t need any of this other stuff,
but they use it because they realize that
they can use it to function better.
If you’re in a hyper-competitive market,
that means bigger promotion, more money.
[00:24:21]
Dr. Pompa:
You and I on the last episode talked about
on our busiest days, we just simply don’t
eat.
I don’t even realize sometimes.
I go oh, I didn’t eat today because I get
so busy.
My focus, my brain works the best when I’m
in a fasting state.
There is no doubt about it.
Many people watching this, Doc, are going
to say it’s the complete opposite for me.
I don’t know what they’re talking about
because their cells are literally only able
to use sugar, very little fat, as an energy
source.
They don’t adapt.
When they go even three hours without food,
they start getting dizzy, angry, irritable,
but that’s a pathology of the cell.
Talk about that.
Dr. Fung:
That does happen, for sure.
It takes a couple of weeks for your cells
to get used to it.
When you first do it and you’re used to
having all this sugar, and your body runs
on sugar, and then you don’t give it sugar,
you’re going to be a little bit off.
Just like when people—you have alcoholics,
for example.
You’ve got these withdrawal symptoms.
You have to let your body become accustomed
to burning fat.
Now, it’s a lot easier to go from a very
low-carbohydrate diet to fasting because your
body is already used to burning fat whether
it burns fat in your diet or whether it burns
body fat, it makes no difference.
It’s fat.
It just burns it.
We’ve noticed that people who come from
that ketogenic, low-carb diet find fasting
a very natural transition.
They transition into it no problem.
The people who eat 55, 60% carbohydrate diet
like they used to tell us in the American
Dietary Guidelines, they really have a hell
of a time.
Luckily, it only lasts for about two weeks.
Then your body just gets used to the fasting.
After that, away it goes.
Certainly, there is a period of adaptation.
People used to call it different things [00:26:22].
Dr. Pompa:
Keto flu, yeah.
Dr. Fung:
—week or two where you just feel like crap
because your body has no sugar, which it’s
used to, and your body is not yet used to
burning fat.
You’ve really got no energy.
You can’t really think and that sort of
thing.
It’s interesting because if you look at
the muscles, when you switch over to a ketogenic
diet, for example, you see that you upregulate
the genes that let the muscle oxidize the
fat better.
You can actually stain for that.
You can see that when you go on to diet [00:26:56]
or fast [00:26:58] just fuel source the fat.
Your muscles, for example, don’t have all
the receptors that they need to burn it properly,
right?
It upregulates.
You start to produce more of them.
Then, you use the fat more efficiently.
Then, you’re good to go.
About two weeks, we tell people.
It takes that much time.
Dr. Pompa:
You’re saying the muscles—you were breaking
up there.
For our viewers here just bring some clarity.
You were saying that these receptors in the
muscles and possibly in the liver, they become
more efficient.
They become active, if you will, and you may
even develop more of them.
Therefore, now all the sudden, you’re utilizing
fat for energy at a much better rate.
Dr. Fung:
That’s right.
Dr. Pompa:
Go ahead, Meredith.
I know we have a lot of questions from the
last show.
These Facebook Live people probably didn’t
realize that we do have another episode that
we did.
This is part two of an interview with Jason
Fung.
Go ahead and ask some of those questions because
those are great questions.
People have them.
Meredith:
There sure are so many.
Just want to follow up quickly, though, because
so many people do pair the keto diet with
fasting.
Is the success of that likely due to the fact
that the keto diet really tends to suppress
our hunger from all of the fat?
Dr. Fung:
I think there is that because if you look
at the study—I think this is quite interesting.
If you eat proteins, there are hormones that
get released, such as peptide YY, that will
tell us to not eat anymore.
That’s satiety.
The same for dietary fat: if you eat fat,
you release cholecystokinin, which has the
same sort of satiety mechanism, whereas if
you eat a lot of refined carbohydrates, sugar
and wheat for example, you don’t get that.
It’s very easy to see because if you eat
a big huge buffet meal and then somebody says
well here, have another pork chop, you’d
be like oh, I really can’t do that.
If somebody says oh hey, you want a cookie?
You’re like yeah, sure.
I could do a cookie.
They might be an equal number of calories,
but you really see that the cookies really
don’t activate your satiety mechanism, so
you can stuff it down.
This is what I call the second stomach phenomenon,
which is what we used to say as kids.
Your mom would say do you want a cookie, and
then you’d say yes.
She’d say hey, I thought you were full.
No, I have a second stomach for deserts.
That’s what we also used to say as kids.
It’s true because you can.
You can put it down no problem.
You could eat two cookies and some ice cream
no problem.
That’s the whole idea that if you go for
a ketogenic diet, then you’re activating
all [00:29:47] to that intermittent fasting.
If you’re doing shorter ones, like 16 hours,
24 hours, then you’re going to naturally
go into that.
It’s very, very easy.
Yeah, I think the satiety mechanisms do play
a big role.
If you’re coming from a very high carbohydrate
diet—this is the whole problem is that if
you eat two slices of white toast with jam
in the morning, which used to be quite common
because hey, there’s very little fat in
that, then you get hungry at 10:30.
If you eat a couple of eggs, you’re not
hungry until 12.
That’s that satiety effect, and that’s
very important.
It was eating all those refined carbohydrates
in the first place that led us to say oh yeah,
you should just eat all the time.
It’s like okay, but that doesn’t make
any sense physiologically.
I think it’s a lot easier coming in.
Dr. Pompa:
One of the things I wanted you to address
is that five, six meals a day.
Many people watching this still are hearing
from their trainer or someone else to eat
five, six meals a day.
What I always say is it kind of works in the
beginning.
You maintain your metabolism.
People could lose a little bit of weight.
Then they hang onto that, but it would stop.
Then they don’t lose weight.
Now, you’re aging faster than you should.
Eating more we know ages you more, especially
when you eat more often.
Speak to that a little bit.
I think he froze.
His internet is in and out.
Meredith:
Shoot.
You could speak to it, and then we can follow
up with Dr. Fung.
Dr. Pompa:
I’d love to get Doc’s opinion on that
just because I’m sure he hears that all
the time.
What we say on this show is don’t eat less,
eat less often because we know that if we
just cut calories, our metabolism does go
down.
The premise of keep your metabolism up, eat
more often, people do tend to lose a little
weight in the beginning because they’re
so catabolic, and it keeps their body from
burning its muscle and keeps the metabolism
up.
It’s short lived.
It really backfires because you’re not ever
giving your body time to burn its own stored
fat for fuel.
When you’re doing that, when you’re not
eating in an intermittent fasting state, whether
it’s fasting through the night, 16 hours,
18, 20, you’re allowing your body to burn
its own fat, and therefore you’re getting
a very constant glucose and insulin.
That’s the key to living longer.
We know that.
Ketosis was called the diet that mimics fasting
because you’re basically getting this rise
in ketones.
It mimics fasting.
I think that fasting itself brings a whole
lot of different and more benefits than even
does ketosis.
Putting them together is magic, as well.
I think he might be back, here.
Dr. Fung, are you with us?
Meredith:
Is that where [00:32:53].
He’s coming back on.
I think the satiety component with the keto
diet, as we were just talking about, too,
is really key.
Remember that study I sent you not too long
ago, Dr. Pompa, where most Americans are eating
probably 15, 18 times a day.
Remember I thought that was so shocking, but
most people out there aren’t counting that
handful of nuts their eating, or the half
a smoothie they’ve drunk, and those little
things that they’re having throughout the
day.
That still counts as food.
It’s still spiking their insulin.
Dr. Pompa:
It is, and you’re spiking insulin even if
you ate a salad or a handful of nuts.
Again, you want to die sooner, you want to
age faster, just eat, honestly.
Every longevity study is basically done—the
science shows.
Eating less is the key.
However, you can’t just say okay, I’m
done eating.
Really, the key is eating less often.
I had the opportunity to visit a hunting/gathering
tribe that ate one meal a day.
It was the first I saw that, but again, even
ancient Europe was two meals a day.
They had their dinner in the middle of the
afternoon and later on in the day another
meal, but they didn’t eat breakfast.
I think that there are so many studies that
show this, that we have it all wrong as far
as the number, eating more often.
It’s just a fast way to age, fast way to
age.
Meredith:
When you were just watching them eat that
one meal, too, was it a massive meal or was
it just like it was a big meal but it wasn’t
shockingly huge?
I’m just curious.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, they sure did.
They ate a lot, I have to say.
It wasn’t like it was this quick thing.
I think even when we look at any ancient culture,
that meal time, it’s their social part of
their day.
It almost tends to go on for a couple hours,
right?
I do the same thing.
Once I start eating—let’s say I’m going
to eat at 4 o’clock today.
I can continue that process.
I start with some cheeses.
I start with maybe some nuts.
Then, I sit down to the meal.
A glass of wine, dry farm wine, but the whole
process is a process.
[00:35:16] lifestyle.
We’re in and out.
We don’t even sit down.
I think that it really is—that one big meal
wasn’t like they sat down and got up 45
minutes later.
During that time period, they ate a lot more
food.
Imagine if you tried to eat all that in a
half hour.
It would seem ridiculous.
As you put the social end of it in, you eat
longer.
Meredith:
Such an important point, too, to just think
of the joy factor as we eat, as well, and
to really enjoy it.
I think, sometimes, when we’re very health-minded
and health-focused, it can just be a little
bit legalistic.
Okay, I’m going to sit down, and I’m going
to eat my grass-fed protein, and my coconut
oil-fried vegetables, and my organic sweet
potato for my starch because I’m supposed
to have my starch in the evening to carb backload—just
taking the joy out of the experience, whereas
if we’re just eating and having a few hours
to enjoy it where we’re starting with the
cheese.
Oh, there’s Dr. Fung again.
Hopefully, we’ll get him back on.
Have that beautiful experience around food
which we’re meant to enjoy then we can even
get more benefit from the food when we eat
it, as well.
Dr. Pompa:
Oh, I know.
There’s no doubt.
Dr. Fung, are you with us?
Meredith:
Oh, shoot.
I see him, see his picture.
Dr. Pompa:
The guy is a wealth of knowledge.
I know one of the questions is—we get it
all the time as far as can diabetics fast.
This is what Dr. Fung does.
He’s fasting people with massive insulin
resistance and diabetes.
His results have been more than spectacular.
Obesity, all of it, they’re fasting, again,
with amazing results.
I think that if we can get him back on, we’d
really gain a lot.
Meredith:
He said his Wi-Fi died again.
Darn.
Dr. Pompa:
[00:37:18] Tell him to look at other things
pulling from it.
Meredith:
He’s on a desktop now and just doesn’t
have a webcam.
Dr. Fung, if you can just do audio, that’s
great.
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, fine.
Meredith:
If you just want to speak.
Can you hear us?
Dr. Pompa:
Ask me another question that people had because
I really wanted this to be about answering
their questions.
Meredith:
A lot of people who are commenting and having
questions on the impact of fasting on the
microbiome, a couple questions on how fasting
could impact SIBO specifically, and a general
impact on gut issues, and how fasting can
be healing for really specific gut challenges.
Dr. Pompa:
It’s one in our category of ancient healing
strategies.
I always say you can’t fix the gut with
just giving bacteria.
We look at ancient healing strategies.
Diets, ketosis, cellular healing diet, that’s
how you fix a gut.
Fasting intermittent, block fasting, that’s
how you fix a gut.
Even diet variation, that’s how you fix
a gut.
Fasting is magical for the gut because you’re
starving down old bacteria.
Then, just like we said we’re starving down
immune cells really fast, and stem cells recreate
stronger, better ones, the same thing is happening
with the microbiome.
We’re starving down bacteria.
Now, we’re able to create better, stronger
good guys, getting rid of the bad guys.
Reinoculating after a fast is a really perfect
time to start eating some fermented foods
and different things, good rich fibers, that
will feed the good guys, as well.
Just the resetting of the microbiome occurs
during fast.
I would love to get Dr. Fung’s opinion on
that because I know he may even be a part
of some of those studies.
Just referring back to why people are sick,
the gut today is damaged, the microbiome.
We know that toxins are playing a big role
here.
We know that certain genes get turned on.
The multitherapy approach, we use these ancient
healing strategies like fasting as really
the key to how you fix a gut today and a microbiome.
Meredith:
Are there more healing methods of fasting
or liquids to fast on than others for gut
healing?
Dr. Pompa:
I would say that each fast is a little different.
It’s different for everybody.
Pure water fasting you get the most autophagy
happening, where you’re starving down bacteria
and bad cells.
Broth fast you get a lot of different electrolytes,
and type II collagen, and different minerals
that are amazing for the gut.
Then, we have whey water, which is a whole
different type of fast that offers different
fermented, different bacteria, many different
types of fast which could be appropriate for
people at different times.
I like to use a variety of different fasts
with people.
The body almost gravitates to one over the
other.
Meredith:
I remember when I first met you, and started
with the company, and learning about fasting,
I did a four-day whey water fast.
I found it to be—it was so healing but so
easy, too.
I couldn’t believe it because I thought
the whey water was delicious, number one.
As you’ve said, number two, especially for
those starting out if you’re listening,
haven’t done a block fast before, which
means fasting for consecutive days—that
the whey water can be very easy because the
blood sugar stays balanced because of that
lactose in the whey water.
Dr. Pompa:
Exactly.
It’s an easy one for people to do because
they’re not used to using fat for energy.
Those first two or three days can be hell.
The whey water absolutely makes that easier.
No doubt I’m a firm believer in water fasting.
I’ve studied it for years.
I think it’s the most natural way of fasting.
Partial fasting in many ways, maybe just with
some fats, MCT oil or coconut oil with some
broth, you’re going to get a lot of benefits
there, too.
I think I’m always asked this question:
how long should I fast?
We’re talking about block fasting, not daily
intermittent fasting, which maybe some of
our people are new to this.
Block fasting, I like four days.
Many people just do a three-day fast, but
when you understand that what’s happening
from a physiological standpoint, you realize
that most of the magic happens on day four.
Why stop at the fast day three?
It takes that adaptation to break through
to where you’re now actually producing really
high ketones.
We measure ketones.
This is one of the ways I do.
This is a breath—it looks at acetones in
the breath.
Then, of course, we can do the blood prick,
too, which I do.
Right now, I’m doing some experimenting
with both.
We’re able to see higher levels of ketones
on day four, which again, ketones turn off
bad genes.
Ketones heal the brain.
Ketones are remarkable for all types of different
healing that’s occurring in the cell.
If you tested your ketones, you would realize
why would I stop day three so at least day
four.
From there, I will even put people in maybe
a partial fast where they’re not doing any
more than 3 to 500 calories in a day.
It could be from broth, fats, avocado, some
very light foods, maybe some eggs.
Going from a fast to a partial fast, the healing
will still occur.
You can tell because their tongues will change.
Some people don’t have a lot of nutrition
stores.
It’s very difficult for them.
In a partial fast, you’ll see their tongue
turn white, yellow, green where the body says
you know what?
I’m good with this.
I’m going to continue healing.
I hope Dr. Fung [00:43:25].
He may not be able to join us again.
Meredith:
No, unfortunately his Wi-Fi has dropped, and
he doesn’t have a mic and just really not
sure why he can’t get back on.
Dr. Pompa:
We’ll have him on again.
We’ll have him again.
Let me answer some more questions.
We’ll finish out the hour, here.
While you’re doing that, I’ll just show—go
ahead.
Ask me a question.
I’m going to do this.
Meredith:
Okay, let’s see what your ketones are right
now.
We’ll check where you’re at, Dr. Pompa.
Awesome.
One of the questions: how can people avoid
weight gain post fast?
I think this is more in reference to block
fast versus the daily intermittent fast, of
course.
They’re doing this fast for a couple of
days—which I wanted to make that point,
too.
Once you’re on day three, day four, you’re
hunger really does shut off at a certain point.
It’s not like you’re starving the whole
time or if you are hungry the whole time during
a longer block fast, then maybe there’s
something else that’s more broken at the
cellular level, I think.
Anyway, just to kind of—if they’ve done
a longer fast, three, four days, hopefully
have hit that four-day mark and they want
to avoid the weight gain post fast, what do
they do?
Dr. Pompa:
Look, you don’t come off of a fast and go
into the standard American diet.
That would be a waste.
You don’t break a fast too hard.
You break a fast very gradually, of course,
very slow and low: soft foods, blended foods,
some cooked.
Believe it or not, raw is harder to break
down even than cooked vegetables so soft cooked
vegetables.
That’s really the appropriate way to break
your fast.
Avocado is perfect.
It’s what you do post fast, that’s why
you wouldn’t gain weight.
You move right into ketosis.
I love taking people out of a fast.
They’re forced into ketosis in three days.
All of a sudden, their ketones are going up,
above .5 on a blood measuring hydroxybutyrate.
When they start eating again, you’ll see
a drop in that, but then they’ll start rising
right back up and end up in ketosis.
That’s an easy way not to gain weight after.
Utilize that to force your cells to use fat
for energy by going into ketosis.
That would be one of the best suggestions
I have.
Meredith:
Great, and it’s what you do after the fast.
That is so true.
Dr. Fung, we’re going to reschedule with
him.
Yeah, a few more here.
I thought this was an interesting question.
It says, “Hi.
How do you explain vegans or people who eat
high-carb, low-fat diets and have normal blood
sugar levels?
I’m really curious about this because I
have tried both low-carb and high-carb diets,
and honestly, neither worked for me.
I’ve had continuous elevated blood sugar
for a few years now, and I don’t know how
to lower it.
I also have an eight-hour eating window for
the same few years, and it didn’t seem to
work.
Do I need to fast for a longer period of time,
or what could be going on?”
Dr. Pompa:
With every fast, more healing occurs.
Every fast, your body gets more and more efficient.
More bad cells die through autophagy.
Like he was saying, the receptors become even
more responsive.
You can develop more receptors.
With each fast, more efficiency.
I just did a Facebook Live yesterday, and
I talked about this with Marilee because Marilee
was not successful in breaking through even
in ketosis.
Her glucose would remain a little high, and
her ketones would not rise up.
Again, now it’s been whatever years intermittent
fasting, and different daily fasting, fasting.
Now, what’s happening is her glucose is
dropping, her ketones are rising, but it took
some time to get her to—she wasn’t sick.
She wasn’t diagnosed with diabetes by any
means, but no doubt about it she had some
hormone resistance, which is what we see in
a lot of women during perimenopause, with
thyroid issues, etc.
I am often asked that question: is it harder
for women?
Scientists seem to say no, but I say clinically,
yes.
We see that, but that doesn’t mean you can’t
break through.
Now, the other part of that question was why
do you see some people on maybe a vegetarian
diet with normal blood glucose?
Again, a vegetarian diet could affect you
in other ways, not just with an insulin resistance.
Again, if you’re doing it right with a lot
of fiber, that would control your glucose,
too.
That doesn’t mean that eating all day is
healthy.
You could end up not having diabetes or insulin
resistance and aging prematurely because the
more often you eat, the sooner you’re going
to age.
It’s going to be a little different for
everyone.
Right now, we’re doing a study with Dr.
Mercola and some of our platinum doctors.
We have them hooked up to what’s called
Dexcom.
That measures your glucose all day and night.
We have a gal who is going in ketosis right
now on a vegan diet.
Just because you’re vegan or vegetarian
doesn’t mean that you can’t go into ketosis,
and we’re actually proving that.
There’s plenty of fats in vegetable form,
and it’s still about carbohydrates, net
carbs, meaning that you’re going to get
a lot of fiber.
You just keep your carbs low, and your fats
high, and your protein moderate, boom.
You’re on ketosis on a vegan diet.
Pretty neat.
Again, I’m not saying that we should be
in ketosis all the time.
I think that I got some slack at the carb
conference I spoke at.
The point is that—
Meredith:
Good for you for sharing on it, going against
the grain.
Dr. Pompa:
Every culture was in and out of ketosis.
The moment they could get out for any reason,
more root vegetables or berries, whatever
it was, they did.
They were human.
I believe that these times of ketosis are
really necessary to reset our DNA, to change
our epigenetics.
I think that we’re learning that these times
in ketosis are very, very needed in humans.
By the way, many cultures went into ketosis
because they lacked food.
They were fasting or partial fasting.
The Hunza people, it was starvation spring,
out of food, the Indians, same thing.
Fasting or just shifting to a diet higher
in fat happened because it had to happen,
or it was forced to happen.
Today, we’re loaded up with carbohydrates
constantly.
When I move into a higher-carbohydrate diet,
I’m not saying moving into—it’s still
considered a low-carb diet, by the way, whether
it’s 100 to 150 grams of carbs a day.
That by American standard—for me, that’s
higher carb, but for the American standard,
that’s still low carb.
The average American gets 100 grams of carb
for breakfast, for God’s sakes, of pure
sugar.
Anyways, maybe there were some more questions
you had there.
Those were good ones.
Meredith:
Yeah, It is crazy to think that—I’m hearing
a lot of echo.
Dr. Pompa:
I don’t hear your echo.
Meredith:
No?
Okay.
Just [00:50:47].
Alright, so let’s see here.
Dr. Pompa:
Okay, here’s a question.
Here’s a Live question.
Can I take a Live question?
Meredith:
Bring it on, yeah.
Dr. Pompa:
Gina said, “Is it wise to force your body
into ketosis when you have elevated cortisol
levels since ketones alone stresses the body,
since ketosis alone stresses the body?”
No, because we actually see a lowering of
cortisol because what happens is fat and ketones
burn much more efficiently than does glucose.
Remember, a cortisol rise is a normal response
at certain times of the day.
It’s not like every cortisol rise—now,
hypercortisol is not good.
However, we know that we get this leveling
off just because we’re switching the cell
energy from being glucose driven, which drives
up oxidation in the cell, to fat or ketones,
which lowers it, which is taking a metabolic
stress off the body.
Now, I would say this: for those people who
have more adrenal fatigue, they need more
electrolytes because during when you’re
breaking through in adaptation in ketosis,
switching from sugar burner to fat burner,
that you will deplete glycogen in [00:52:04]
going out will bring some electrolytes with
it.
Magnesium, potassium, sodium, make sure you
get these, even zinc.
Definitely elevate that level.
Salt intake helps you hold onto potassium,
so we increase the salt.
By the way, salt is fantastic for your thyroid
and your adrenals.
Just support with some extra, at least 2 teaspoons,
of sea salt a day when you’re especially
breaking into ketosis.
You will have success.
That was a great question.
Bring me some more questions.
Meredith:
Awesome.
Thanks, Gina, great question.
We get this a lot: as far as during the fasting
or the feeding window, the proper number of
calories to eat.
I know that may be dependent on goals.
There are a lot of different variables, but
how do people have a gauge for how many calories
to consume during that fasting window to meet
their needs?
Dr. Pompa:
I showed this article in Scientific American.
The article, you should get this, Meredith:
“Workouts and Weight Loss: Learn the surprising
evolutionary reason why exercise alone won’t
shed pounds.”
In this, they were stunned because they measured
the caloric output of one of these hunting/gathering
tribes in northern Tanzania.
These people did the one-meal-a-day thing.
All day, the men were out chasing down game.
They’re literally exhausted, just like the
tribe I visited.
The women are out gathering.
They’re just gone.
It’s unbelievable the amount of work they’re
putting in in a day.
They measured their caloric output with the
most scientific way, the most accurate way.
I think it’s called the doubly water test.
It measures CO2, and it’s the most accurate
way of looking at how many calories somebody
burns at the end of a day.
You know what they found?
For men, whether you were in this tribe—these
men in this tribe who went all day long, burned
2500 calories a day on average.
Guess what?
Compared to the average American couch potato,
it was the same!
Humans were genetically burning about the
same amount of calories.
Ladies, it’s about [00:54:16].
Meredith:
Really?
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah.
I think that my answer to that is why ingest
more than 2500 calories unless you’re a
body builder who’s trying to put on muscle.
Then you’re going to want to take in more
calories because you’re trying to transition
that into muscle.
Now, I think you’re giving up some health
benefits when you’re doing that.
To become larger, more muscular than the average
human or your average metabolism DNA wants
to be, you’re going to have to eat more
calories.
The bottom line is that if this no matter
what we burn, whether we’re sitting on the
darn couch or whether we’re chasing down
animals all day, I think this gives us a good
idea.
In your eating window, anywhere between 2,000
and 2500 calories is probably where you’re
going to end up as far as what you need or
want to be satisfied.
I think it could be less.
I think some people might have a lower metabolism.
Remember, these are averages for very healthy
people.
Unhealthy people, you may be a male burning
1800 for all I know.
Again, that was a study done on a very healthy,
thriving tribe that’s able to burn that
genetic maximum human.
By the way, when they looked at primates,
apes in the zoo—primates were half of the
human caloric burn at the end of a day, basically
exactly half.
Apes in the zoo burned the same amount of
calories as apes in the wild, despite being
so much more active.
Crazy, right?
Meredith:
Fascinating.
That’s amazing that with such different
lifestyles and activity levels, that it would
be the same.
That just speaks so deeply, I think, too,
to an innate intelligence that, regardless
of our situation, our bodies adapt.
It’s really incredible, that information.
I love that.
Do you have time for a few more questions,
or do we need to wrap it up?
Dr. Pompa:
Yeah, go ahead.
Give me a couple more questions.
Maybe some of you on Facebook, share or like
this, guys.
I know you’ve all had a lot of questions
about fasting and on ketosis.
This is a way to transform many conditions.
You heard Dr. Fung in the beginning of this
talk about all these benefits.
I wish we were able to keep him on.
I’ll bring him on again.
Share and like this with your people there.
Anyway, maybe I’ll get another question
from here.
Fire one more off me.
Meredith:
I think this is interesting, too, just curious
to ask Dr. Pompa on fat fasting.
This is a technique that I think some people
use to break into ketosis and to burn fat
where, literally, for days on end.
I think I’ve done this for at least a day
or two where you’re literally eating nothing
but fat.
Perhaps, you’re eating literally a stick
of butter with sea salt or straight up coconut
butter or coconut oil, literally eating pure
fat for at least a day, maybe multiple days
on end to break into ketosis and to burn fat.
What are your thoughts there?
Is that a healthy thing to do?
Dr. Pompa:
I think it’s degraded.
I would call that a partial fast.
You’re not purely fasting, but you’re
eating fats.
I’ve done that with several of my clients,
especially for people who just are so unhealthy
at the cellular level, in their mitochondria,
that breaking through for them would be difficult.
I would add some of these MCT oils, coconut
oils, some ghee, some of these really sustaining
fats, and they did good.
They still got a benefit.
Then the next time they fasted, or maybe two
times later, then they were able to do just
pure water.
It could just be a strategy to break through.
A little bit of broth and some fats is a nice
modified partial fast.
Meredith:
Yeah, easier to maintain your insulin, and
your blood glucose levels, and a transitional-type
fast, that’s great.
This is talked about a lot, too, unless you
have some other questions coming in.
Dr. Pompa:
No, I don’t have any other coming in.
Meredith:
Some of them were just wondering about longer-term
fasting and if there’s dangers to that.
I know you’ve talked about this a lot, but
I’m just really digging in for people who
just aren’t getting results with intermittent
fasting, shorter-term fast.
They’re just seeking to maybe do a longer-term
fast but also a little bit nervous about it.
Can you speak to that?
Dr. Pompa:
I think that, first of all, to do a longer-term
fast, you need a professional practitioner
who understands fasting because, no doubt,
intermittent fasting daily, I think that’s
a completely different animal.
Things can change.
Electrolyte depletion can occur.
Then, you must break the fast.
Longer fasting, definitely supervised.
You’d be stunned—and I’ve realized just
right now I have another call I have to get
on, but you’d be stunned how long people
can fast.
Tell them the other episodes that we did with
Dr. Dempsey fasted 22 days, another doc with
30 days.
You can refer to those episodes.
I’m going to sign off here.
Go ahead and refer to those episodes on Cellular
TV.
Thanks, guys.
Meredith:
I’m not sure of the numbers exactly, but
if you go to podcast.drpompa.com and water
fasting done right is with Dr. Derrick Dempsey.
He did a 22-day water fast.
With Dr. Don Clum, he also did about a 30-day
water fast.
Those are about maybe around the 110, 114
marks for Cell TV.
We’ll look those up and make sure they’re
in the shout-outs correctly.
Those are definitely key episodes to check
out, as well, for those doctors who did longer
fasts and got some really interesting results.
Thanks so much, Dr. Pompa, for the awesome
answers.
Thanks, everyone, for the amazing questions.
Stay tuned, we’re going to get Dr. Fung
back and dig into more of your questions for
him.
Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see
you soon.
Dr. Pompa:
Thank you.
Meredith:
Bye, everybody.